Rebuttal, please?
Or, just come out and say the US should attack Iran, just 'cuz.
Don't tell me we -or Israel- "have no choice". The last thing Israel needs to do right now is start an international fight in its backyard, in the climate the Middle East is in.
Please don't tell me this budding conflict has anything at all to do with "defending" someone against Iranian "aggression".
Every shred of objective evidence refutes this claim.
Please don't talk to me about the "Caliphate" or the "12th Imam". I give those about as much credence against Iran and Muslims as I do the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion against Jews.
It's propaganda, people. Are we really so blind?
h/t Battlefield USA
Hold me to it.
‘Inciting regime change in Iran would be greatly assisted by convincing the Iranian people that their government is so ideologically blinkered that it refuses to do what is best for the people and instead clings to a policy that could only bring ruin on the country.’Let's see how prophetic those words are.
But the authors underline the necessity of creating a favorable climate for the transnationalists in which to operate.
‘(…) any military operation against Iran will likely be very unpopular around the world and require the proper international context (…) The best way to minimize international opprobrium and maximize support (however, grudging or covert) is to strike only when there is a widespread conviction that the Iranians were given but then rejected a superb offer- one so good that only a regime determined to acquire nuclear weapons and acquire them for the wrong reasons would turn it down. Under those circumstances, the United States (or Israel) could portray its operations as taken in sorrow, not anger, and at least some in the international community would conclude that the Iranians “brought it on themselves” by refusing a very good deal.’
Ask yourself who this war would be fought for, and who would benefit from it.
Follow the money...
ReplyDeleteIf Iran sells oil via gold to India and China the dollar as reserve currency starts to die.
Of course, they'll need a... another catalyst.
ReplyDeleteMaybe another... Project for the new American Century... Pearl Harbor?
I'm sure they'll dream something up to get the booboisie all hot to wave the flag.
ASR... look what they did to Libya. Gold Dinar anyone?
Some in the International Community would conclude that the United States "brought it on themselves."
ReplyDeleteThere,i fixed it for ya.
CIII
While you're busy telling people to not tell you something try calling the man who said the following a warhawk.
ReplyDelete"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frigthened, for those things MUST take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and eartquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."
The Greek word dei translated to the English word must means "it is necessary."
I do not like that but there it is just the same.
Let's see how prophetic those words are.
These things may be necessary; that does not mean we should rush into them.
ReplyDeleteI would remind you that people have been applying that statement to their present situation for 2,000 years.
Are you saying that this statement absolves people for the evils of war? Is this a reason to fight? What are you saying?
AP
You are correct in all you said above. I like the question, "who is to benefit from such actions?". It brings to mind Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket" the book here: http://warisaracket.org/index.html
ReplyDeleteThink of all those poor Generals that would be out of a job if the force is cut in size. Why does the military vie for a cyberwar command? Someone wants a job and the defense contractors want money! Corporatism, Crony Capitalism is to gain, at the expense of capitalism prosperity and the American people.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, that almost every O-5 and above is a political tool with few exceptions. It's a rare thing to find a senior officer who really cares about his soldiers in command and speaks out against the machine. This man, he has dignity and honor: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030
This is why I and many others left service as officers, this disrespectful waste of human life. There's alot of Generals that should be prosecuted under UCMJ for not following their oath to their troops and the constitution, but it will never happen.
Black6
Link to the "War is a racket" book is wrong. Here's the real link:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
Another informative perspective on Iran. It's a must watch (Rick Steves TED talk "The Value of Travel" on Iran):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYXiegTXsEs
Black6
OK, for whatever reason my most recent post didn't make it. So, here's another and it's a bit long.
ReplyDeleteGiven the converstaion I've read here it seems that most are locked into a particular point of view that does not include that which I am tryiing to present. Mainly, given their history why should Israel wait? Many valid reasons, of course, but, in the end, they are fighting for their survival. Make no mistake about that. Please try and view what's happening there from that perspective.
BTW I've read some horrifying accounts of the camps during WWII.
Eugen Kogon's--The Theory And Practice Of Hell was the most disturbing. Also, if you can find it, get a 2001 movie titled Conspiracy, starring Kennth Branagh and Stanley Tucci. It's about the Wansee Conference that decied the Final Solution to the "Jewish Problem."
Imagine a trip to the Concentration Camp at Auschwitz, Poland. When you arrive go to the "showers", then to the ovens.
Stand in the showers for a time and think about how the German soldiers would toss babies on top of the adults stuffed in there because they had no where else to put them. Then remember, the soldiers waited for the screaming to stop. That's how they knew they were dead.
And remember these people did what some are suggesting. They waited and didn't rush into anything. Then visit the secton where thousands of pairs of eyeglasses and shoes are kept. Also, see the large pile of ashes (but overall a tiny representaion of what happened) that were once living human beings. And remember, they waited and didn't rush into anything. View the lamp that has a shade made of human flesh.
Then, go to Jerusalem and to the Holocaust Memorial, called, Yad Vashem. When you're through, call all the Jewish people there around you and tell them they should wait and not rush into anything...if you can.
Eric-
ReplyDeleteI have posted every comment I have received lately.
Using the Holocaust as a rationalization for initiating a war of unprovoked aggression is rather ironic, to say the least.
In fact, though I will likely be hit hard for saying this, the Holocaust theme is wearing a bit thin as justification for anything and everything Israel wishes to do.
Really. There. I said it.
Yes. Jews were persecuted. They have been throughout history.
Using the persecution of one group to deny another group protection against the same persecution is errant logic, at a minimum.
The Japanese were nuked by Americans.
The Germans were starved, en masse, after WW2, by Americans.
I don't see those groups using those tragedies as a pretext for unprovoked violence and aggression.
Are you saying they should as well?
"Never again" and all?
There are just as many heart-wrenching stories of innocent Germans suffering at the hands of the Allies, post-war. SHould I begin telling them to explain why Germany should launch an attack on Russia? In fact, many such stories were used as justification for Germany to march into Poland. Odd that you would agree with Hitler's MO for kicking off WW2. Perhaps not though, because you are advocating the initiation of WW3.
Launching an attack based on the fear and emotion of the holocaust is the quickest way to ensure that another such event will happen.
Whether the next victims will be Jews or Muslims remains to be seen.
Again though, if you're still reading, I have never, not once, presumed to tell Israel what to do.
If they wish to initiate this war, in spite of all of what it will mean to them and to the world, they can have at it.
Alone.
The US should not support the initiation of hostilities, nor should we come to the rescue of a nation that gets stomped for doing so.
To all those that wish for war with Iran,
ReplyDeleteYour logic is flawed. Iran building a nuclear weapon is not an aggressive act any more than Iran buying or building conventional weapons and bombs. Plenty of countries, and individuals have lots of arms, that doesn't mean they're going to go on a spree through the neighborhood. Having arms and using them are completely different things. Your twisted logic is the same used by the nanny state to take away your guns. Think about that.
Acts of war are clearly defined, direct military action, blockades (sanctions and asset seizures - as we have done to Iran destroying their economy, and as we did to Japan to provoke their attack).
The US and Israel by the letter of the law are the aggressors here unfortunately.
The middle east is unstable, with many thanks to decades of failed American foreign policy rigging and engineering. The best we could do now for our people and the world would be to bring our toys home, open free trade and mind our own damn business.
If your had family in Tehran, you would be singing a different tune. If you understood as direct consequence, your friends and family to be retaliatory casualties from attack on these countries you would be singing a different tune. If you knew the sting of death, you would probably be more careful about calling for bombs, and all the collateral damage that results.
If this happens, I pray that all who called for this war have the images of the dismembered and killed children and innocents forever burned in your mind. Sickening.
Black6
AP
ReplyDeleteAs for my failed post I may not have gotten the code right and I did not mean to imply that you refused to post it.
As for the rest I do understand that each nation has its right to acquire what it chooses.
As for your comment about the Holocaust wearing thin on you, so what?
It doesn't on Israel or this Christian.
As for your thought that attacking Iran would somehow be initiating an unprovoked war I disagree.
They have been attacked since their re-instatement as a nation in May '48. You may not view that as enough but I do. We'll just have to disagree on that.
I want to go back to what I believe you said about waiting and not rushing into anything.
I would like a definitive answer to the following questions.
Exactly what are they to wait for?
Why are they to wait for it?
If circumstances do not meet your criteria what do they do then?
BTW I'm only interested in Israel for now. There will be enough to discuss or cuss about if things go into the toilet.'
Also, I actually like the back and forth here. Even if we disagree.
"The Germans were starved, en masse, after WW2." AP
ReplyDeleteAmen! Read the Bacon Priest, the monk who started Die Kirche in Knot (Church in Need.) It is all about the hell Germans, and others fleeing the East, post WW2 suffered until the 1950s. In fact it would have been worse if it were not for the Belgium Dutch (Flemish) of which the priest was who started the charity.
As for Iran . . . I am not sure. I do not want them to be nuclear, and not just because of Israel. Arabia and Europe are just as good reasons as Israel.
Then again this is out of my control. I have enough to worry about at home. For whatever reason this is the time it is gonna be . . . pray for peace.
Erik- we disagree, but I am enjoying it as well.
ReplyDeleteI promise you a reply as soon as I am able. Your questions deserve more than a response typed on a phone. :-)
I'll get back asap.
AP
I do have to say though Erik- and this is only half in jest, it does not bode well for rational discourse if we are going to blow each other off with "so what"?
ReplyDeleteNot every christian sees the holocaust as justification for war in this case.
But I'm skipping ahead unfairly. I will answer your questions, and hopefully you will answer mine.
AP
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteAs terrible as it was for the Germans after the war please remember that they followed
their so called leaders into it. They were not starved in Israeli concentration camps. The Puppetmasters who actually run things behind the scenes are behind much if not all of that.
AP
It doesn't bode well for rational discourse when you I see your implied so what at a reported 6 million people were slaughterd
as if they are not supposed to use that as motivation to defend themselves in their future.
It is what it is.
More later.
As terrible as it was for the Germans after the war please remember that they followed
ReplyDeletetheir so called leaders into it. They were not starved in Israeli concentration camps.
You're right. They were starved in American concentration camps.
But they "deserved it", right?...
Your questions-
I would like a definitive answer to the following questions.
Exactly what are they to wait for?
Why are they to wait for it?
If circumstances do not meet your criteria what do they do then?
BTW I'm only interested in Israel for now.
Given that you're only interested in Israel for now...
I believe they should do what they feel necessary to secure their nation-state's security.
I have said this from the beginning.
I think they are free to do as they please, and if they strike first, they should be likewise free to suffer the consequences and reap the rewards...alone.
I don't care. They can strike right now, if they want.
Doing so would be the worst thing possible for Israel's future, IMO, but that is not my nation, nor my call.
The United States should stay out of any war of aggression against a sovereign nation.
Have I explained my position well enough?
In past comments, I perhaps have blurred the line between Israel and the US, as they seem to march in lockstep anymore. My comments against the war are specifically directed to the US.
My take is as I have said here. A preventive war of aggression against Iran, Russia, and China on Israel's behalf is not our fight.
This fight will do more to damage American liberty here at home than nearly any other event in recent history.
I will go into more detail, if necessary, to satisfy your questions before asking my own.
I can provide specific answers to "what should Israel do", but I am not concerned with Israel, only the US.
AP
To play Devil's Advocate a bit:
ReplyDeleteWhile *you* may disregard the Caliphate/12th Imam stuff, that doesn't mean that the people proclaiming it don't mean it. Lebensraum, International Revolution, Greater Serbia, the East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, Hutu Power....all of these ideas could be dimissed just as easily at the time they were popular, yet their advocates were all very committed to it.
There's also a practical case for war based on a threat to the global oil supply and prices. Like it or not, modern economies run on oil - any threat to the supply or any massive disruption in the price pretty much is a causus belli. Hell, a lot of WWII was fought over control/supply of oil - if a nation doesn't have enough, it will grind to a halt very quickly.
Hard to predict what will come of it all if it ends up as a war, though. On balance, the world is still working through the fallout from WWI in Africa and the Middle East.
@Eric: "As terrible as it was for the Germans after the war please remember that they followed
ReplyDeletetheir so called leaders into it."
And the German leaders were largely pushed in the direction of war by the Versailles treaty. Had the 1920s worked out differently and Communists been in charge in Germany, it still would have been in a position where it would have been forced to fight to reclaim the Rhineland, strategic mineral deposits stripped and given to other countries, etc.
The end of WWI made WWII inevitable. Italy and Japan were going to be belligerents simply because they got screwed out of their share of the profits from being on the winning side....
Jimmy
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on all this.
Two great resources for more information if you don't have them are: The Creature From Jekyll Island---G. Edward Griffin and The Unseen Hand---A. Ralph Epperson
Unfortunately for all who oppose involvement in other nations the Puppetmasters are in charge and they're not going to change anytime soon.
Also for those who can accept it God's timetable for this ol' world of His is run straight from Israel.
If you don't know what's going on there and how it affects everyone and everything you're operating from behind. Think about that. The whole world is obsessed with what happens there on and ever increasing scale. Have you ever wondered why that is?
We don't need their oil. We have enough oil to last us a few hundred years. But I doubt anyone will be around to start pumping it if they so desired.
ReplyDeleteFrom NousDefions...
Iran has, according to our government, been trying to acquire the bomb longer than 5 years. Back in 2005, they estimated that Iran would have the bomb in 10 years. U.S. intelligence knows very little about what is going on Iran. The Jerusalem Post (I don't have the year for this) estimated that Iran would have the bomb in 2012, or as early as 2008. In 2002, it was expected that Iran was on the march to democracy, when in fact, the opposite has occurred. Most of our intelligence concerning Iran are at best guesses.
Anyhow, bringing the non integrating gap into the core** has been a dismal failure. Or has it? It certainly is not and will not bring democracy into the gaps. One would be hard-pressed to explain the purpose of the U.S. instigating the Arab Springs only to have the hardcore Muslim Brotherhood gain power. One can only assume that, like Hitler and the Third Reich, the U.S. see's the Muslim Brotherhood as beneficial to whatever ends it wishes to accomplish. How this all will be beneficial to Israels future is beyond me. It seems to me, that the U.S. is setting the stage for a future Arab-Israeli conflict.
It also seems to me, when stepping back and looking at this picture, Israel is not the Apple of Gods eye to the U.S. as it is to God. And frankly, as I see it, while the U.S. may not be responsible for an Arab invasion of Israel... the U.S. is certainly setting the stage and putting all the chess pieces together for that event. In fact, whether willingly or unwillingly, the U.S. is setting the hook in the jaw of future hostilities.
Anyhow, as AP says, this is not our dog fight. If Israel wishes to commence hostilities, it is free to do so without our blood.
**Look it up and read all that is relevant to it.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteGoing on your logic that the Germans deserved what they got post war, because they followed Hitler and killed jews, then the US deserves to be be annihilated also, since we've been killing people at random for decades also. Hundreds of thousands of needless civilian deaths, just because we can! Following Bush and Obama makes the people of the US war criminals too? We deserve to be starved, mistreated and beaten down for decades, because the majority of the people believed in false prophets?
Our turn is coming, the world will not be kind to us either.
Black6, good work!!
Semper Fi
ReplyDeleteI did NOT say they deserved it.
And I resent the implication.
It was the result of all that preceded it and hardly anyone ever escapes that.
A hard lesson to learn is:
We (All) reap what we sow more than we sow later than we sow.
And yes the Puppetmasters certainly have something in mind for the U.S. Not looking forward to that. Those who sacrificed to give us our Republic
are turning in their graves.