Some might say that failure to stand in lockstep (as the US has said it is doing) with an ally is breaking a nation's word.
Like this. How many Kurds died in Iraq due to American betrayal? America demonstrated that it is the master at making promises, to be abandoned as soon as they are not expedient, regardless of how many lives are lost as a result.
Iraq is but one example of how the US meddled in another nation's affairs, received blowback, over-corrected, and ended up in an absolute disaster. For the people of that nation, of course. But, remember, they only hate us 'cuz we're "free".
This brings me to another concept though, one that arose during a conversation with a close friend.
This concept is the Social Contract. Here is my line of thinking on social contracts and inherited responsibilities. I will illustrate it with a few questions, and then explain. Answer the following questions truthfully:
1.) Are you, if you are white, responsible for the past slavery of blacks, and subject to paying reparations today?
2.) Are you, if native American, responsible for the Fort Mims massacre, or the starvation of Jamestown, and subject to paying reparations??
3.) Are you, as an American citizen, responsible for the repeated betrayals and resulting slaughters of Iraqi Kurds?
I would say, and I think most readers here would agree, that the answer, in all three cases, is an absolute and unequivocal "no". Why? One might say that he or she did no such thing, and cannot be held responsible. And that is absolutely true.
And so, in a roundabout way, by answering the above questions, you have begun to unravel the concept of a binding "social contract". You are not liable for your ancestors' or predecessors' actions. You are not personally morally liable for agreements they made or failed to make.
The state changes this however, through its monopoly on violence and coercive force. Can you hear the noxious hissing of the state? "You WILL honor that treaty or that agreement brought into force by people before you with your tax dollars and obedience, or we will send heavy infantry to arrest you. If you resist arrest, you will be killed." Further, the state growls, "You will send your sons to die for another man's policies, for another man's conniving schemes and intrigues...if he does not go, we will subdue him and lock him up. If he refuses to be locked up, we will kill him."
There is no "social contract". There is only the coercive force of the state, the monopoly on violence, impressing upon your life the will of people who have come before you.
So, to answer the concern raised in the earlier conversation about keeping a nation's word...
I will keep my word. I do believe that a man's word is his bond, but... I agreed to no such nonsense. I signed no such treaty. As a result, I have no moral obligation to honor a treaty or law that obliges me to act against my conscience. I have every moral right to resist and defy those who would try to force the consequences of a decision I did not make upon me.
There are four words that sparked the first American Revolution. They were spoken in defiance of the existing crown/colonist relations, in defiance of the existing English "Social Contract".
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| "We Will Not Comply" |
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| "We Will Not Comply" |
These four words have sparked quite a bit of violence over the course of our nation's history, and eventually led to a second revolution in America some years ago. Hundreds of thousands of our nation's best men died to determine which course the social contract disagreement would take. As I said before, brute force and violence determined the answer. It always does, when the question is forced.
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| "I Will Not Comply" |
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| "We Will Not Comply" |
I will not comply.
I will raise my children -and lead them by example- to refuse to kill and die, to refuse to be a slave for and to a "Social Contract" that violates their conscience. I will not teach them to be subject to others' commitments, promises, or lies, nor will I teach them to be pawns of the state and victims of its intrigues. Such a position is, in my opinion, correct in a secular sense, and, for those who are Christians, spiritually correct. It is instructive to note, as was pointed out here recently, that the majority of the New Testament was written from prison, and that the disciples of Christ ended their life either through state violence or in state captivity.
Perhaps such a stand, and a life that demonstrates this, not just flag-waving, would ultimately prove fatal.
Historically speaking, it almost always has, if the question is forced.
Well.
If one is going to die, one should do so on terms that are agreeable to one's conscience.
One should also endeavor to deserve such a death, should it be forced upon him by the collective.





Very well put.
ReplyDeleteI have read your blog on and off for a while now, but I might add this one has put the point on the matter (so to speak) the best. This is what we should all stand for, this is what we as a nation have lost. "A Mans word is his bond", Amen.
Item #3: Are you, as an American citizen, responsible for the repeated betrayals and resulting slaughters of Iraqi Kurds?
ReplyDeleteAre we not, as those who have financed the circumstances and allowed men, in our names, to establish the circumstances, by some measure morally responsible for those deaths?
No Kurd is capable of stopping the American politicians and Masters who are killing them...
...but every American is in a position to do something about it.
Our indifference and lack of defiance makes us culpable, no?
Kerodin
III
I struggled with taxes for a long time. This is where I am-
ReplyDeleteMy tax dollars are extorted from me, taken under threat of violence.
I am as responsible for how they are spent as a mugging victim is responsible for how the mugger spends the money.
Does a mugging victim share the responsibility if he/she does not fight to the death?
AP
If a thug in Government uniform comes to your home to take your dollars, to be used to kill foreigners...
ReplyDeleteIf said thug comes to your home and takes your guns and ammo to be used to kill foreigners...
If said thug comes to your home and takes your son, to be put in uniform to go kill foreigners...
Where's the difference? Why draw the line at dollars versus your son?
The result is the same.
Replace "Foreigners" with "Jose Guerena"...
Parsing that perspective gets tricky.
K
You might find Keith Laumer's "Retief" books interesting.
ReplyDeleteOne of them (not one of the better ones, but worth the read) is online here:
http://www.baen.com/library/0671318578/0671318578.htm
The thing to remember is that Laumer spent many years in the US diplomatic corps. What he's writing about is things and behavior he saw with his own eyes.
K-
ReplyDeleteCareful. Some of my anarchist friends might think you're making a good case for anarchy...
;-)
Seriously though, what is the end game then?
I won't be held accountable for the mugger. If I can drop him, I will. If not, he has his own will.
Does the above taxpayer-shared guilt apply equally to having an account at a bank that gives a loan for a liquor store, that sells beer to a drunk who runs over a kid?
Where do you think accountability and guilt stop?
It stops where we are able to stop it, no?
ReplyDeleteIf something is beyond our control, so be it.
But if something is not beyond our control and we simply refuse to take corrective action or responsibility because it pinches us personally, we are evading.
BTW - I am there with 99% of the Anarchist PoV. Once we solve the problem of national defense from foreign Tribes, I'm in.
Militia can't defend against nukes.
K
Are you, if you are white, responsible for the past slavery of blacks, and subject to paying reparations today?
ReplyDeleteThe constitution says: "The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted." Corruption of Blood was legal language for punishing the family and descendents of the criminal. Punishing the family of a criminal is police state garbage.
Where do you think accountability and guilt stop?
At the end of the physical chain of cause and effect. Authority and responsibility are flip sides of the same coin, they grow and shrink together. Logically, you cannot accept responsibility for things beyond your control. You don't control the mugger, if you did control him it would be slavery. If the mugger or the voter takes your guns, money, or son to kill whoever, that's a shame, but you don't share any responsibility for their bad acts. You are morally permitted to stop them, but you are not morally required to stop them.
K-
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying.
I agree that sometimes we (meaning I, for one) evade rather than doing what needs done.
I also agree that militias can't defend against nukes.
Thanks for the clarification.
AP
I'm as guilty of evading as most. ;)
ReplyDeleteThe difference between us and most people is that at least we are willing to recognize our reality and accept our hypocrisies.
"They" refuse to accept responsibility while "we" are adult enough to admit we are part of the problem, until we stop being part of the problem.
The Patriot will pick his moment to stop tolerating and start making corrections.
As Hancock said on the night of the Boston Tea Party: Let every man do what is right in his own eyes..."
I would add ...when it is right... to the statement.
Kerodin
III
I would be more than glad to stop paying taxes - if I could only get enough gold to sever all ties with the people who pay me right now. If anyone works for a living (non-self-employed, for the most part), they are robbed without asking every payday. My pension is taxed without my permission, and my salary at the big-box I work for is taxed before I see one red cent (and that is almost what I end up seeing).
ReplyDeleteI have seen more than enough schemes on how not to pay taxes, written mostly by people now living at state expense in very small rooms.
And I am not an American responsible for the slaughter of Kurds. Never thought we should be over there, still don't. I'm with Ron Paul, and as long as I openly object, I am doing my part. When y'all decide to up the ante, I'll be there. Till then, I'm stocking up and keeping count.
Our indifference and lack of defiance makes us culpable, no?
ReplyDelete======================
Sometimes I just cannot believe the things I see.
All of a sudden I am disgusted.
Further recommended reading on the "social contract" & consent:
ReplyDeleteno treason
http://lysanderspooner.org/node/44
&
our enemy the state
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock1.html
&
the law
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
itor
I am one person - a small person in the eyes of any authority figure. Having said that, I made a decission (abet over a few beers) that I am finished with this country as it now exists. I will not participate in the farce of elections nor will I justify myself to those who might deride my belief system. I am tired of my money being taken from me (on all levels and through the hidden taxs and regulations); I am tired of those in power using our concept of government (via the Constitution and Bill of Rights) to their own ends and when those ends do not agree with their 'world view' trashing our basic laws (my firm belief is that we now live in a lawless society) and I am piticulary tired of the parisites of our society bleeding us to death through 'fairness' and 'social good' laws and regulations. I quit - sorry ......
ReplyDeleteBTW, if you come for me (which is doubtful), better come fast and come hard because I'm not going quietly or easy.
Once we solve the problem of national defense from foreign Tribes, I'm in.
ReplyDeleteThe US Navy recently did a big budget wargame of a US carrier group vs. the Iran coastal fishing fleet armed with missiles. Despite lots of cheating, the Navy lost. The dual purpose fishing boat/missile approach costs a million times less than a carrier group, will be staffed for free by volunteers if it is ever needed, and can't be used for colonial aggression. It's also good against the occasional pirate.
Militia can't defend against nukes.
Nothing can defend against nukes. The response to them threatening nukes is to have your own nukes. All the nukes the militia might need have already been built.
By this line of thinking, there is not only no "we" who can say "We will not comply", but also no one to say it to, because they can just say "Sorry, we didn't mean for it to turn out this way, it was the guys before us that did it to you. Take it up with them."
ReplyDeleteAlso, are you one of these idiots who thinks we "deserved" 9/11? Because your recent posts on Iran all point to "Yes, I am one of these idiots." Clarify if otherwise.
My advice: stick to posting silly little tacops fantasies with some combination of vague calls to resistance mixed with even more vague posts about "when we'll know it's time", and leave the thinking to others. It's just not your strength.
Anonymous 3:31-
ReplyDeleteTo your first point-
The concept of "social contract" involves an assumption that the contract is passed on in perpetuity. SIgning or agreeing to serve in an army is different, as it is a choice one makes, as opposed to something one inherits from birth.
You seem to be indicating though, that without the widespread acceptance of the "Social Contract", certain wars would not have happened. I agree, and thank you for emphasizing my point.
No, I am not an individual who thinks that America "deserved" 9-11. If you read my posts on Iran again, you will see that I believe that America does not operate in a vacuum, and that the laws of cause and effect apply to America as well. No nation "deserves" to have 3,000 citizens killed. Not America, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, not Iran. Having said that, one cannot operate at will throughout the world and not expect some feedback.
As to your last statement, I encourage you to engage me further on your stated points.
I sincerely hope you will, and that this is not just the standard "hit and run" internet theatre.
While thinking may not be my strength, it's really fun sometimes to try...
AP
I follow the logic here AP but consider this. If we maintain this line of thought then no one is obligated to abide by property boundries. If you have an agreement with all of your neighbors where your land begins or ends I have no obligation to follow that agreement since I was not a paart of it. There are agreements that when documented become binding to those beyond the parties directly involved do they not?
ReplyDeleteFor your three examples I would answer No, No, Maybe. No one is alive to answer for the first two but most of us were around when the US hung out the Kurds to dry. I think we do bear a measure of responsibility for that. Does that bind us to a given requirement to "pay up" that depends. It depends on what is being asked by the Kurds. What was agreed to, if anything originally. It also depends on the barriers to satisfying that debt on our National honor.
I think this is really what Washington was saying when he said "beware of entangling alliances" I dont think he was trying to tell us to NOT make a treaty. I think what he was telling us is that honor demands that we abide our word so we must be carefull in what we agree to do. I dont think we had a treaty with the Kurds and I think that is our problem. We have had decades of government officials selling our honor cheaply, giving our word that we would accomplish something. They have no intention of ever living up to that and no means to make it happen. Its fraud. All of these types of agreements should come before our representatives to vote on. For decades we have been a whore that takes the money and runs from MOST of our customers.
Grenadier1
Grenadier-
ReplyDeleteProperty rights are generally deliniated fairly clearly, and when a person buys property, the extent of the property is generally known. Also, buying that property is generally a choice.
I do agree with what you've said about entangling alliances, but I am unsure if an agreement that politician xyz made fifty years ago binds me or my son to it. I am also unsure that secret alliances and agreements made without my knowledge during my lifetime are binding upon me or my responsibility, either.
I have to fall back to my mugger analogy, and to the comments of anonymous 8:57-
Logically, you cannot accept responsibility for things beyond your control. You don't control the mugger, if you did control him it would be slavery. If the mugger or the voter takes your guns, money, or son to kill whoever, that's a shame, but you don't share any responsibility for their bad acts. You are morally permitted to stop them, but you are not morally required to stop them.
Grenadier1 writes: If we maintain this line of thought then no one is obligated to abide by property boundries
ReplyDelete[because Ugg the caveman killed Glug the caveman to get the territory, and men have been killing each other for that territory ever since, and there is no clean crime-free purely homesteading title possible until we move to outer space, or habitats on or under the ocean, but nowhere on land except the poles.]
That's part of the reason for a statute of limitations on crimes. That's part of the reason that punishing the man's child for the act of the man is wrong. Remedy for crimes done by people long dead is unavailable. The Earth belongs to the living.
What you can do is to try to minimize the amount of collateral damage you do to others, today. In the American Midwest during the last depression, this spirit was honored by neighbors buying back farms auctioned for back taxes and unpaid mortgages and then giving them back to the distressed owners.
our National honor
You mean your tribal honor. I am not morally bound by your social contract, including the honor of your great soviet motherland etc. If you want to be a libertarian you need to stop using "we" and synonyms to include me.
"if you want to be a libertarian"
ReplyDeleteThats rich!
You are reading WAY too much into a single comment. Get off your high horse and get your head out of utopia's ass.
I dont intend to get into a pissing match over libertarian street cred with someone who does not even identify themselves.
Good day.
Grenadier1
AP,
ReplyDeleteI get you mugger analogy but I think its not quite the same.
Its really only addressing your tax money. Your vote is given willingly so its not stolen from you (in theory). Even if our government took no tax money from us they get our vote to represent us. Regardless of what we get to in the future right now we live in a representative form of government. We (yes Anonymous asshole I used a collective WE)bear a level of responsibility for what our government has done in our name.
We cant simply throw up our hands and profess "I am a libertarian, since I didnt vote for all of them I bear no responsibility".
If your government goes rouge and begins genocide and you do nothing to stop it then you are responsible all be it less so than those who pulled the trigger.
Recall "all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing".You can damn well bet that other people will hold you responsible!
Where I was going with my property rights analogy was that when elected government representatives document an agreement it is a contract between the citizens represented by that government and whom ever they are in an agreement with. That is just as binding for generations as a property deed. Is it not wrong for later generations to say "I didnt sign this so I dont have to live by it"? What kind of wrong would that thinking lead too?
Grenadier1
You are correct. My vote -IF it is given- is a choice.
ReplyDeleteHow is a citizen to cleanse his conscience then, when a politician betrays him by doing something "in his name" that is contrary to what the person voted for?
What specific action is required for me to not be responsible, under this logic, for the war in Iraq? Or the one coming in Iran? Or for a bombing my government carries out?
Is writing a letter enough? Protesting? Physically fighting? Do I have to die resisting to not be held accountable for the actions a government claims to take in my name?
And what of people living under autocracy, or a government that is rigged? Are they to resist to the death every action they disagree with?
I cannot accept that I am responsible for another's actions.
As a recent commenter said, I am morally allowed to resist the hypothetical mugger, but I am not morally required to do so. If I killed the mugger over five dollars, I would be in hot water. Yet if he used that money to buy bullets, am I responsible for him pulling the trigger?
It applies to the tax money, yes, but also to the "consent currency", if you will, given by the voters just the same.
An election is not a blank check.
"In terms of morals there is no such thing as 'state.' Just me. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts." -Heinlen
Without knowing your spiritual leanings, I will not go further, but I can say there is a strong spiritual case to be made to this effect as well.
Christian / Nation-State relations used to be my forte. ;-)
AP
Oh and to post a general note to no one in general-
ReplyDeleteDon't assume this audience is all or even mostly libertarian.
There are hardcore militant Marxists, National Socialists, Anarchists, Republicans, Democrats, and even a few "New Right" folks in the audience.
Folks with every viewpoint from Hardcore, "True Believer" Marxism to "Good ole USA" conservativism, from Evolian Fascism to Hitlerian National Socialism frequent this site, and I welcome each one.
Regardless of which side of the battlefield we may all find ourselves on, one day.
AP
AP,
ReplyDeleteI agree that elections are not a blank check. Thats true. What I am thinking about is that we have a responsibility to maintain involvment in a representative form of government beyond an election. Thats why I think as long as any agreement or cause for declaration of war is brought before the representatives and we are given time to participate in that debate then we bear a responsibility. Indeed if our government officials go off and do things in secret or with no public debate then yes I would agree we have no part in that action.
Just to add. This has been a thinking out loud process for me. I am noodling all this out as we correspond.
Grenadier1